DEITY WORSHIP SEMINAR
Sridham Mayapur 2-03-93
Sri Sri Radha Madhava ki jay!
I was inspired by Jayadvaita Swami's class this morning in many ways, both by
form and contents. I mean by that, aside from what he spoke I was also inspired
by his way of speaking very briefly and then asking for questions. And I'm
thinking that's probably the best way to conduct this seminar, because I
suspect that many of you have questions. Some may be very particular, some may
be more general, and it may not be so valuable for me to go on and on about a
subject which is as vast as the philosophy of Krsna consciousness. But I would
like to start with a nice quote from Srila Prabhupada from Srimad Bhagavatam,
where Prabhupada explains, what is the proper understanding of the Deity form
of the Lord, and then there's one story about a very wonderful Vaisnava,
Narahari Cakravarti Thakura, in our line of disciplic succession, so I want to
tell about. And then we'll talk a little bit about Deity worship in ISKCON Å
past, present & future, and then I think we'll open it up for questions. First
I want to read this quote from Third Canto Bhagavatam, Chapter 25, Text 35,
purport, which we are including in this book which we are now in the process of
compiling on Deity worship Å this by the way is the present condition, the
present form of the Deity worship book, still avyakta... semi-vyakta form. We
will explain little more about this book later. So, Prabhupada says: "Mayavadis
and atheists accept the forms of the Deities in the temple of the Lord as
idols, but ? do not worship idols. They directly worship the Personality of
Godhead in His arca incarnation. Arca refers to the form which we can worship
in our present condition. Actually, in our present state it is not possible to
see God in His spiritual form because our material eyes and senses cannot
conceive of a spiritual form. We cannot even see the spiritual form of the
individual soul. When a man dies we cannot see how the spiritual form leaves
the body. That is the defect of our material senses. In order to be seen by our
material senses, the Supreme Personality of Godhead accepts a favorable form
which is called arca-vigraha. This arca-vigraha, sometimes called the arca
incarnation, is not different from Him. Just as the Supreme Personality of
Godhead accepts various incarnations, He takes on forms made out of matter Å
clay, wood, metal and jewels.
"There are many sastric injunctions which give instructions for carving forms
of the Lord. These forms are not material. If God is all-pervading, then He is
also in the material elements. There is no doubt about it. But the atheists
think otherwise. Although they preach that everything is God, when they go to
the temple and see the form of the Lord, they deny that He is God. According to
their own theory, everything is God. Then why is the Deity not God? Actually,
they have no conception of God. The devotee's vision, however, is different;
their vision is smeared with love of God. As soon as they see the Lord in His
different forms, the devotees become saturated with love, for they do not find
any difference between the Lord and His form in the temple, as do the atheists.
The smiling face of the Deity in the temple is beheld by the devotees as
transcendental and spiritual, and the decoration of the body of the Lord is
very much appreciated by the devotees. It is the duty of the spiritual master
to teach how to decorate the Deity in the temple, how to cleanse the temple and
how to worship the Deity. There are different procedures and rules and
regulations which are followed in the temples of Visnu, and devotees go there
and see the Deity, the vigraha, and spiritually enjoy the form because all of
the Deities are benevolent. The devotees express their minds before the Deity,
and in many instances the Deity also gives answers. But one must be a very
elevated devotee in order to be able to speak with the Supreme Lord. Sometimes
the Lord informs the devotee through dreams. These exchanges of feelings
between the Deity and the devotee are not understandable by atheists, but
actually the devotee enjoys them. Kapila Muni is explaining how the devotees
see the decorated body and face of the Deity and how they speak with Him in
devotional service."
So this purport by Srila Prabhupada is a very nice summary of the whole
philosophy, the whole understanding of Krsna consciousness in the process of
Deity worship, arcana. So we know that arcana is one of the nine processes of
devotional service.
sravanam kirtanam visnu smaranam pada-sevanam
arcanam vandanam dasyam sakhyam atma-nivedanam
We know that sravanam and kirtanam, hearing and chanting, are the most
essential types of devotional activities. Without hearing and chanting there's
no question of being successful in the other processes of devotional service.
At the same time, the other processes are there, and we perform more or less in
the Krsna consciousness movement all of these processes. In the Srimad
Bhagavatam we have the description of Lord Caitanya's appearance.
krsna-varnam tvisa krsnam sangopangastra-parsadam
yajnaih sankirtana-prayair yajanti hi su-medhasah
That intelligent persons in this age will worship the Supreme Lord, Who is
appearing in this age as Lord Caitanya, primarily by the process of sankirtan.
The word prayair is used, meaning primarily, not exclusively. In the Gaudiya
Vaisnava tradition we find that Lord Caitanya and His assicates were all
worshipping Krsna not only by chanting the Holy Name, but also by worshipping
the Deity. There are many Deities of Krsna which are around Bengal, in other
places, East Bengal, that were worshipped by associates of Lord Caitanya. The
chanting of the Holy Name is essential for properly worshipping the Deity.
These two things actually go together: realizing that the Holy Name and Krsna
are nondifferent and realizing that Krsna's arca-vigraha and Krsna are
nondifferent. These two developments of our understanding actually go hand in
hand. We know that name, form, qualities, pastimes, paraphernelia of Krsna are
?. Abhinnatvam nama naminoh, we heard this morning. The name and the Possessor
of the name are nondifferent. So in a similar way, Krsna and His arca-vigraha
form are nondifferent. We know that the Holy Name is sometimes referred to as
Nama Prabhu. You have heard this expression before? The Nama Prabhu, the Name
Master. The Lord, Who is our Master, Who is appearing in the form of the Holy
Name. So Krsna is appearing in different forms, in any form that He appears He
is our Master. Particularly in His form as arca vigraha, we get two
opportunities: one is to see Krsna with our material eyes and thus be attracted
to Krsna's transcendental form, and the other is that we get to serve Krsna in
so many activities with all of our senses. All of our senses including the
mind.
Now this brings me to this nice story about Narahari Cakravarti Thakura. We
often hear how Krsna Consciousness is a cultivation, it is a matter of
cultivation, Srila Prabhupada explains in the Nectar of Devotion. So it's very
nice to hear how Narahari Cakravarti Thakura, who incidentally wrote a very
famous book, the Bhakti-ratnakara, which is a kind of Vaisnava history book
from the eighteenth century. Narahari Cakravarti Thakura was a very advanced
devotee following in the line of Visvanath Cakravarti Thakura. It seems that
one day he was meditating on how Krsna wanted to appear as Sri Caitanya
Mahaprabhu. That's also described briefly in Caitanya Caritamrta by Krsnadas
Kaviraja Goswami. Narahari Cakravarti Thakura was seeing Krsna considering how
He wanted to appear as Lord Caitanya and discussing with Srimati Radharani.
Srimati Radharani was arguing with Krsna, why He should perhaps not do this. It
seems that Lalitadevi was also involved in the discussion, there was a quite
lively discussion on the subject. At one point Narahari Cakravarti Thakura in
his meditation saw Radha and Krsna suddenly become one in the Person of Sri
Caitanya Mahaprabhu. When he saw that, he became overwhelmed in ecstasy, rolled
on the ground unconscious. Completely overwhelmed at seeing Lord Caitanya
Mahaprabhu and actually witnessing how Radha and Krsna become one Å radha
krsna-pranaya-vikrtir hladini saktir asmad. So devotees recognized that
Narahari Cakravarti Thakura was a very advanced devotee, and they encouraged
him to take up service of Govindadev, the Deity established or rediscovered by
Rupa Goswami in Vrndavan some decades before. They took Narahari to the Govinda
temple and all of the assembled devotees prayed to Govinda to please accept
this Narahari Cakravarti and please allow him to be engaged in Your service. At
that moment the flower garland which was hanging around the neck of Govindadev
fell down, and the devotees immediately recognized that this flower garland was
a blessing for Narahari Cakravarti Thakura Å Yes, let him be engaged in My
service. So the devotees were chanting "Haribol, haribol" in great ecstasy, and
they took the garland from Govinda and they hung it around the neck of
Narahari. Narahari Cakravarti Thakura felt himself highly unqualified to
worship Govindadev. And therefore he would engage in various services keeping
himself at a distance from the Deity. Although the pujaris would encourage him
to perform direct services, dressing the Deity, and so on Å he felt he was not
qualified. Rather he would do other services, menial services, like cleaning
the temple room, picking tulasi, rubbing sandalwood paste. And many other
services, it's described that he was doing so much service, it was like one
person was doing the service of ten. He would do all these menial services, but
he would also do service in his mind. It is described that one night he laid
down to rest, and while he was resting he was meditating on cooking for
Govindadev. He was cooking a whole meal. Everything was there. Khichari,
sweetrice, chapati, subjies, all the different preparations he was cooking in
his mind. And then, after he completed the cooking, he would prepare the
offering, all in his mind, and he would bring it to Govindadev, and he would
offer each preparation to Lord Govinda. And in his dream he would see, Govinda
was laughing. He was smiling and laughing, and He was taking the offering, and
then He was joking with Narahari. He said: "Narahari, you are cooking so
nicely. In your mind. You are cooking so nicely, I have to accept it!" Narahari
was absorbed in this way, seeing how Govindadev was enjoying, being pleased by
his offering. So this was going on in Vrndavan. At the same time in Jaipur, the
king of Jaipur was also sleeping. Govindadev appeared to him in the dream and
said, My dear raja, you really should go to Vrndavan. You should go to Vrndavan
and see Me there, worship Me there, and take My prasadam. There is such a nice
prasadam which is cooked for Me. You will like it too much. So you should come
with your family. So, the raja was very surprised, he woke up... When he woke
up right in front of him was a golden plate, a complete plate, thali, with all
preparations, prasadam from Govindadev. He understood this is actually the
prasadam from Govinda. Somehow it had manifested. So he got out of bed, he woke
up all his family members, woke up the whole clan, rajaput means big family,
woke everybody up and in the middle of the night, or early morning, I don't
know, they had a big feast on little bits of mahaprasadam. And it tasted so
ecstatic, they were all overwhelmed in ecstasy and then the raja explained what
happened, he had just had a dream and Govindadev had invited him to come to
Vrndavan and this is His prasadam. So they said, well, yes, we have to go, let
us go immediately! So they packed up, they went to Vrndavan... Govinda had
explained to the raja that Narahari Cakravarti Thakura had been cooking for Him
in his mind. So when they came to Vrndavan, came and saw Govindadev, they
offered obeisances, and then the king was calling out: "Where is Narahari?
Narahari, where are you?" So Narahari Cakravarti Thakura was staying on the
side, he was feeling very meak, not wanting to draw any attention to himself.
Everyone was calling, where is Narahari, he appeared finally, and then the raja
explained what had happened in his dream. That he had been told by Govindadev
Himself, Narahari had been cooking for Govinda. The local pujaris said:
"Narahari? He never cooks for the Deities." Then he explained: "No, he does
cook for the Deities. He cooks for Govinda and Govinda is always accepting his
offering. He is cooking in his mind, but that offering that he was cooking in
his mind had manifest in Jaipur and I have eaten. And that mahaprasad is so
wonderful, you can not imagine." All the pujaris, all the residents of Vrndavan
were saying: "Really? We didn't know about this!" Then they forced Narahari,
you go in the kitchen and you cook immediately for Govindadev. The word spread
very quickly, the residents of Radhakunda and Govardhan all came, and the feast
was offered to Govindadev and then everyone had the prasad, this big feast,
cooked by Narahari Cakravarti Thakura. He became known as rasuya-pujari. Rasuya
means very expert cook. So, Narahari Cakravarti Thakura was a very expert cook
and he pleased the Lord by his very devotional cooking which was initially in
his mind. Later on, he was encouraged by Govindadev to compile books describing
the history of the Vaisnavas. He is famous now especially for his
Bhakti-ratnakara, describing the pastimes of Lord Caitanya's associates. Lesser
known is that he was actually a very great pujari. And his greatness was
appreciated particularly by the residents of Vrndavan, because he was so humble
and so unassuming.
This service of worshipping the Deity is actually very glorious, but it is
rarely appreciated. In our Krsna consciousness movement, it is not so much
appreciated because it is not recognized as being direct preaching. Actually Å
of course, sometimes it is explained like that, Srila Prabhupada also said,
someone who is less advanced, he should stay back in the temple and ring the
bell. If he cannot go out and preach. It is a fact that direct preaching, going
on the battle front, facing the nondevotees, is certainly in all respects
obviously most glorious. But there are some unsung heroes in our society, many
pujaris throughout our society, many of them Å many of you who have been doing
Deity worship for so many years, in this way actually holing our society
together in a very concrete way. Some years ago, some of you know, there were
so many disturbances in our society, sometimes there was anxiety that the
society may break apart in different ways. So we saw, that actually what held
our society together, and what holds us together more than anything, together
with the instructions of Srila Prabhupada Å part of those instructions being
how to worship Krsna Å is our Deity worship. Imagine if Krsna, the Deities of
Radha-Krsna, Lord Jagannath, Sri Sri Gaura-Nitai were not there in our temples!
We cannot imagine, because Å what is ISKCON, what is Krsna consciousness
without worshipping Radha-Krsna, worshipping Gaura-Nitai, Lord Jagannath? It is
not imaginable. Srila Prabhupada had this wonderfully complete vision of
establishing all aspects of Krsna consciousness. Taking the risk Å he sometimes
called it a risk Å of having western devotees engaged in Deity worship. But we
see that by this vision of Srila Prabhupada, Deity worship is going on
throughout our society. In many respects, considering so many of the
difficulties that our society still face, in many respects Deity worship is
going on very nicely. It was pointed out in one of the talks during the
GBC-meeting by Jayapataka Swami, we had a kind of brain storming session in the
GBC-meeting about how to increase preaching, and the question which he first
posed was: "What is it, what are some of the things which attract people to our
movement? What are some of the positive things about our Krsna consciousness
movement which people like?" And the first point that came up was our Deity
worship. People are very much attracted, very much impressed by the opulent
Deity worship. Deity worship has its function which goes together, is very much
integral to our mission of spreading Krsna consciousness. We go out with books,
we go out with the Holy name, we go out with prasadam to bring people in
contact with Krsna consciousness. Our intention is, at some point they come
closer to the association of devotees, and what is at the center of the
association of devotees? Krsna. And where is Krsna? Krsna is in His temple. So,
we always are endeavouring in that direction, to go out and bring people Å
where? To the temple. When they come to the temple, what do they see? Rather,
Who do they see? They see Krsna. So, one aspect of our Deity worship, a very
essential aspect of our Deity worship is actualy preaching. And the other
essential aspect of Deity worship is our personal development of Krsna
consciousness. We just read ...(break)... We were reading in this purport,
Srila Prabhupada is describing how Krsna is so kindly appearing before the
devotees in His arca-vigraha form so that we can see Him, so that we can engage
in His service and gradually come to this point of understanding Krsna's
personal form, understanding that Krsna is present, being able to actually
speak to Krsna and Å as Prabhupada said Å hear His response. For this purpose,
we could say, the whole arcana process is there. But the whole arcana it is not
an artificial process, rather it is the same activities which are going on in
the spiritual world. We see on the altar Radha-Madhava and the Sakhis. What are
the Sakhis doing? Actually Å yes, they are worshipping Radha-Krsna. They are
holding camaras, offering betel, offering flower garlands. So, what is going on
in Goloka Vrndavan? We are also training up to do those things which actually
we should in our natural position of Krsna consciousness, pure Krsna
consciousness, be able to do very naturally, spontaneously. In order to do
that, so many rules and regulations are there. These days, I should say for
these last weeks, months or even years, practically whenever I meet devotees,
they say: "When is the book coming out?" So, my answer is: "Which book?" We
plan to make so many books. We are in the process of making one book which is
almost completed, just now coming. It's about daily Deity worship. It is
dealing with a lot of rules and regulations and standards. Everyone is asking
this question because everyone is very anxious: "What are the standards? What
is the proper standard for us to follow?" And of course, what is behind this
interest to know the standards? The interest is to know, how can we properly
satisfy Krsna in our Deity worship. How we can properly satisfy Krsna in our
Deity worship is essentially explained fully by Srila Prabhupada in his books
and also in his letters. This purport, within three paragraphs, Prabhupada is
explaining quite completely and quite essentially how we can satisfy Krsna by
Deity worship. But how to actually do everything properly so that Krsna will be
satisfied? That is why this compilation of rules and regulations is going on.
Now we have put in this Deity worship book, in the introduction, one little
paragraph saying that this book is not a "Do It Yourself"-manual. This is the
age of "Do It Yourself"-manuals. Teach yourself Sanskrit, teach yourself this,
teach yourself that. But Deity worship is not Teach yourself-process. Why?
Because we are worshipping Krsna. How do we know how to worship Krsna except by
the direction of Spiritual Master?
sri-vigraharadhana-nitya-nana- srngara-tan-mandira-marjanadau
yuktasya bhaktams ca niyunjato 'pi vande guroh sri-caranaravindam
The Spiritual Master teaches us how to worship Krsna. Spiritual Master may
directly teach us or he may designate someone to show us. In any case, the
principle is there. Srila Prabhupada has taught all of us Deity worship, the
principles of Deity worship and many details. Some things which were not
explained directly by him, he told, "Find out from that person, find out from
that temple." These are details. Rupa Goswami says, there are principles and
details, and Prabhupada was mainly concerned with principles. This book that we
are coming out with, it is more details. But it is not meant to become
distracted from the principles. A misconception that some devotees have is,
"Prabhupada gave us very simple Deity worship, actually he admitted he doesn't
know so much about it, so now we are going to start learning something more
advanced." That is a mistaken idea. Prabhupada was teaching the most advanced
worship! We often give the example of when Prabhupada would in
twentysixth-second avenue ring a little bell and offer incense to a picture of
Panca-tattva and his Spiritual Master. Very simple. He would chant the
Mangala-carana prayers. Devotees called it "bells", because they didn't know
what else, didn't know it is aratika or anything. So they called it "bells".
That worship was topmost uttama adhikari-seva, worship of Krsna in arcana. If
we can come to that platform in our worship, that is certainly our perfection
of Deity worship. But to come to that platform, again Å so many regulations are
there.
smartavyah satatam visnur vismartavyo na jatucit
sarve vidhi-nisedhah syur etayor eva kinkarah
So many rules and regulations are there, what are they? They are kinkarah, they
are servants of two principles. What are these two principles? Always remember
Krsna and never forget Krsna. This is what Prabhupada says in this purport.
OK, so these are a few brief and general remarks, as I said, I wanted to keep
to Jayadvaita Swami's form Å you came a little late, I said I was impressed by
Jayadvaita Swami's form and content of his lecture this morning. The form was
very brief, and then he asked for questions. The content was completely
ecstatic, of course. So actually I'd like to stop now and just ask for
questions. It doesn't matter how particular or how general it is. I also wanted
to suggest that: this is a scheduled seminar. It is the only scheduled seminar.
If some of you are interested, we can unoffically schedule a further seminar,
if you want to get right down to the specific details of how to do so many
things. In one sense, though, I tend to say with many questions, please wait
until, the book comes out, it's all explained in the book, but this sounds like
the opposite of what I just said, namely we need also instruction. Which brings
me to one final point I wanted to make, and that is that along with the book,
we also want to develop a systematic training program for pujaris in ISKCON;
full time as well as part time as well as whatever classification of pujaris.
We were planning to have, we apologize for not actually doing to those who may
have gone to Vrndavan Institute in January, we were planning to do an Institute
seminar, we didn't do because we were originally expecting to have this book as
our text book, it was still not ready. I thought, well, one month of teaching
in Vrndavan means one month of not working on the book, so the whole society
waits for the book, and if a few are waiting in Vrndavan... better I work on
the book. It's quite probable we'll have a seminar in Vrndavan next January,
and if we don't have the book ready by then, then someone else should take over
for me and get this book done... I'm just not qualified to do it if it's not
done by then. We are also developing something in Europe, there's a group of
devotees who have had a few meetings in London, do develop a whole scheme for
long term higher education of devotees in three areas: Preaching, management
and puja or we can say priestly activities. That's something which will come in
the form of very specific (?), which will go together with service. The idea is
that one will not have to completely stop his service, at least not for long
periods of time, and that service and education can go on together. And there
is an idea that there should be some form of awarding of diplomas. Of course
that is also being developed in sastric degrees, Bhakti sastri, Bhakti
vaibhava, Bhakti vedanta, Bhakti sarvabhauma, that is already manifesting Å
Bhakti sastri programme already exists. Long sight of that is to have a long
term training for devotees in these three areas of devotional activities.
Eventually they want to have also other "devotional vocational training". Those
ideas are there. Å Alright. You had a question?
Question: ...(indist)...
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: What do we do if we have had a standard of worship Å I'll
make it little more general. Å If we've had a standard of worship for Deities
and we find we can't maintain it. (break)
(tape 2)
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: May be someone has a question for Bhanu Swami...
Question: ...(indist)...
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: O yes. If you didn't hear, Caitanya Mangala's just
mentioning this pujari at Champahatti we met on parikrama. He was ordered by
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura to take care of the Deities, Lord
Caitanya and Gadadhara. Gadai-Gauranga. He is still doing it, after 65 years.
That is called taking the order of the Spiritual Master as one's life and soul.
That brings us to your question again, what is the special qualification for a
pujari? The special qualification is Å it's not special, it's the qualification
of any devotee: take the orders of your Spiritual Master as your life and soul.
If he gives order to worship the Deity, take that as your life and soul. If he
gives order: worship the Deity, go out on sankirtan, cook, make life members,
do all of these things Å take that as your life and soul. Do all these things.
Question: ...(indist)...
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: This sounds like a question for you, Maharaja. Is there a
boundary, is there a limit to Krsna's mercy in His Deity form for those who are
having difficulty in their following principles?
BHANU SWAMI: Well, Krsna says that if we cannot follow the principles of dharma
or the four regulative principles or chanting sixteen rounds or whatever the
Spiritual Master gives to us, that means the attraction to the material energy
is very strong still, and actually the point of initiation, at that point at
which we choose to ... we choose Krsna over the material energy. That's real
initiation. When we choose spiritual world rather than material world. So, if
we have a lot of difficulties because of the material energy, that is not a
very good symptom actually. But of course Krsna says, anyone can approach Me.
Through the process of bhakti, sadhana bhakti we can gradually purify
ourselves. We may not be qualified in the beginning, but through the process of
devotional service we can come to a high, high level. Deity worship is part of
this process. We may not be pretty qualified for Deity worship, of course, we
may be initiated or second initiated as far as formalities are concerned but we
still may make mistakes or like that, but the process itself should be
purifying for us.
But the point of Deity worship is, there's like a minimum standard you have to
follow to do it. And if you don't follow that standard, it becomes offensive,
so you don't progress. You go the other way. There has to be minimum standard
for Deity worship, real Deity worship, otherwise it's not beneficial for you.
That is why we insist on, or Prabhupada insisted on the... you know, you should
have second initiation for Deity worship, to come up with a certain standard.
Below that standard, then we shouldn't advise that one does Deity worship, in
that case. Stick to the chanting of the Holy Name and try to be without
offense, until one becomes purified. So that is how we get the mercy of Krsna
in that case. Deity worship is a little special, there has to be some
qualification. Chanting of the Holy Name Å no qualification as such. Faith is
necessary, of course, for effective chanting, but in Deity worship there are
some particular qualifications, and if we don't follow, we don't have such
qualifications, then we won't get the result. That is why actually deity
worship is not the yuga-dharma. Chanting of the Holy Name is. Because not many
people are qualified to begin with in Kali yuga. So, we can't say everyone go
and worship the Deity, because they can't, that would be an offense. And the
Holy Name, we may not follow all the other things so perfectly, but if we have
a little faith, we can start chanting and purify ourselves gradually. Then, at
a certain stage we can come up to the qualification for Deity worship also.
Then we can do Deity worship and by doing that sadhana we can also progress. So
we can say there is a sort of limitation on Krsna's mercy, or at least Å not a
limitation, because Krsna is unlimited and He is not following any rules, but
the process of Deity worship as a process of bhakti is such that Krsna will
give that mercy if you come up to the qualification. If you don't, then we'll
have to put a question mark there, it may not be so good to do Deity worship.
Question: Prabhupada said that we should make, especially grhasthas, they
should make their home into a temple. So, we have to encourage those grhasthas
who want to advance to have some Deity to come. What is the meaning to inform
them that they need to have Deities to turn their home into a temple?
BHANU SWAMI: Well, if you want to really do it according to the sastra, then
you have to install your Deities, then you should have some minimum standard
which is an authorized standard, according to, let's say your (...) or the
local GBC or whatever, but it has to have some sort of standard, not sort of
whimsical that one day you wake up late and another day you wake up early,
another day you bathe the Deities, another day you don't, you know? It can't be
like that. Because then actually ... It's not just having the Deity. The Deity
is there, so you follow the standard every day and come up to a higher standard
by doing that. Yes, very regulated. That's the whole meaning of having the
Deity in the house, so that you are perceiving, you have the consciousness,
that my whole house should be Krsna conscious. Everything in the house should
be dedicated to the Deity. But if we take it casually, if we don't have any
standard, then the function is lost, so we simply become offensive by doing
that. Therefore our qualification should be that we have to be quite strict to
do that also. Of course, that's what Prabhupada wanted Å he wanted the
grhasthas to be strict, to follow principles very nicely, exactly.
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: I think, we have a question from there.
Question: ...(indist)...
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: ...and at midnight you have to stand on your head. You
know that?
BHANU SWAMI: Well, strictly speaking with Gayatri, especially with the Vedic
Gayatri mantra, which are our first lines, so to speak, of the Gayatri, there
is a lot of rules mentioned in the sastra, if you want to go by sastra. But of
course, as Gaudiya Vaisnavas we don't put so much emphasis upon that Å the
Vedic rituals and things like that. That Vedic ritual is called the Sandhya
vandana, and when you chant that mantra you may chant it anything from ten
times Å that one mantra, the first line Å to 1008 at a stretch. That's their
japa. They don't do japa like Hare Krsna japa, so that's their japa, they chant
Gayatri japa. It may take them quite a while to do that. That's their sadhana,
or one of their sadhanas. Around that they have also rituals for purification,
do this acaman and bhuta sudhi and other types of worship, tarpanas(?) they do
like that. It may take them up to an hour, an hour to an hour and a half, to go
through this whole Gayatri. And that's just the first line... And they have
different ways of facing, in the morning you face east standing up, at noontime
you can go north sitting down, at evening time west sitting down, and you can
hold your hands in different positions and all that. Different sastras give
different rules. That's adopted by the person according to what his father did,
because you get the Gayatri mantra from your father, who is in a certain line
of teaching. It goes down through families like this. Of course, now we don't
have fathers like this, they don't give us this, so it's a little different
situation. Plus, because we're Gaudiyas, we don't emphasize this Vedic Gayatri
so much and the rituals that go with it. But we do have other mantras which are
there, that are the Pancaratrika Gayatris, the ones for Lord Caitanya, Krsna
and guru, these are Pancaratrika mantras. Originally, there were also some
simplified rituals to go with this, and the rule is that first you do your
vaidic, then you do your pancaratric gayatris, after that. But even that has a
little bit minimized now because we are mainly interested in chanting the Holy
Name and we don't put so much emphasis on these gayatris. But still, because
it's pancaratrika, and it's part of pancaratrika initiation, this is what vedic
initiation has, the vedic gayatri. So, our diksa, our pancaratrika initiation
has these gayatris we get at the second initiation, these are actual Vaisnava
mantras we get through initiation, mantras as part of initiation, so these are
the mantras we get. That's why we have to keep chanting them. The rule would
be, we should chant these mantras to get the best effect. Just like Hare Krsna,
we say there's no rule, no hard and fast rule for chanting Hare Krsna, but in
the same time we do know that there are certain things you can do to get a
better effect. In other words, if you are sleepy, that's not good, therefore if
you take a lot of food at night, probably you'll be sleepy in the morning, so
it's better not to eat at night. Something like that. Or, to chant Hare Krsna
you should be clean. Because if you wake up, you take a bath, you put fresh
cloth on and you put tilak on, then it purifies your consciousness a lot.
Simply by doing that, that's a purification of consciousness, therefore you can
chant better Hare Krsna also. Of course, there's no hard and fast rules, but
these are favorable for chanting very nicely the Hare Krsna mantra without
offense. Therefore we tend to do these things. In the same way we can also use
that for the chanting of the Gayatri mantra. Do what is favorable for getting
the best effect from these mantras. Because these mantras are also nondifferent
from Lord Krsna. Hare Krsna is nondifferent from Krsna, so these mantras are
also... the kama-gayatri is considered by Bhaktivinoda Thakura to be the
gayatri in its form in the rasa lila. Transformed in the rasa lila, this is the
form of Gayatri devi in the rasa lila. So, it's a very exalted mantra. If we
are to get the right effect from that, therefore we have to be pretty
conscious, pretty Krsna conscious to do that. Therefore we will have to follow
those things which will make us more attentive to get the best effect of the
mantra. These rules are there, and of course, they are effective, even the
vedic rules, face these different directions also. We don't know, because we
are so gross that we can't feel any effect, but different directions also
effect us. What we wear effects us, how we clean our body effects us, how we
sit effects us. It all effect us in different ways. In ancient times,
scientifically more or less, let's say due to experience in more subtle
consciousness the rsis and sages wrote down, or they directed, which are the
most effective means by which our consciousness will be most alert for chanting
these mantras. Therefore there are so many rules. But if we have all these
rules nowadays, we become a little bit disturbed by so many rules, so we can
simplify things a little bit. But still we can follow the guidance, at least
some of these things we should try to implement to improve our chanting.
Question: ...(indist)...
BHANU SWAMI: Well, the rule, at least the vedic rule, is that you do
prayascitta by offering some tarpanas; it's like apology in a sense, because I
could not do it in the proper time, therefore I'm little sinful, therefore I
compensate for that by doing these offerings. And the other thing is, you chant
extra at the next Gayatri, minimum of ten extra times you do it.
Question: ...(indist)...
BHANU SWAMI: Technically the time is sunrise, and it's actually so many minutes
before and after sunrise. It says that the sandhya begins when the stars begin
to appear in the sky. That's when it begins. Until so many minutes after
sunrise. And then the middle of the day, and then evening time up until the
time sun sets, until the stars begin to appear in the sky. Those are the
technical sandhya periods. So sandhya means a joining, the joining of day and
night and night and day, those are the two most important ones. Now there is a
significance behind that also, it's not simply a time period, but it's also
like a psychophysical period of the body, when the cycles of your body are
changing from day cycle to night cycle and vice versa. So these particular
times are very important for not doing other activities, but very good for
meditation. Those particlar periods, the body changes, so it's good for
meditation in those periods, that's why they advice to do it at that time and
it's so particular. If you don't do it at that time they say okay, you go to
hell for so many lifetimes, something like that. Just to encourage us to do it
at the right time. Because it's most favorable. As I were saying, we should try
to adopt those favorable rules, or those rules which will help us to increase
our attentiveness. Therefore those rules are there, because is more easier at
that time to do these meditations better. Or should be, if we are in proper
health.
Question: ...(indist)...
BHANU SWAMI: It's better. Because it becomes an offense to the Deity also, and
therefore the whole temple becomes involved in that offense also.
Question: So then the whole community will have to suffer the reaction?
BHANU SWAMI: Yah.
Question: What would you do in that situation ...(indist)...
BHANU SWAMI: Traditionally speaking, what is done in some temples, I don't know
if we should do it in ISKCON, but what they do is they reinstall the Deity.
That's like an extreme step, okay, Krsna is gone, now all these offenses are
there, therefore let's do the whole thing all over. But it's not uncommon, like
in South India every twelve years anyway they do it all over, because due to so
many people coming to the Deity and so many impurities happening Å this is
automatically by people before the Deity Å gradually the potency goes out. So
every twelve years they recharge by having reinstallation.
Question: ...(indist)...
BHANU SWAMI: If Deities are stolen or damaged or something like that... Well,
according to the sastra it is not very auspicious, it is not considered a very
good sign. They even have a technique, they call it daiva prasna, so the
priests know something is wrong, therefore they go to the astrologer and they
have a series of techniques by which they diagnose what happened, who made the
mistake, where the mistake is. Because the Deity is not pleased and so many
things happening, everything is going wrong, maybe somebody is cooking wrong or
a dog came into the Deity room and passed urine or something, or some
untouchable person came up and touched the Deity... so many things may go
wrong; or one of the pujaris is doing something wrong, offenses, like this...
They have different ways of detecting. Of course, if the actual Deity breaks,
that's considered very bad. Generally when that happens, they will replace the
Deity, because they say Krsna is gone, so they replace the Deity. Because how
can we have Krsna with cracked arm. Should be perfect. So generally obviously
something must have gone wrong in that case, some offense or something, that
would be the conclusion. We can't say who's offense, but at least some offense
by which the Deity left, Krsna left in other words. Because Krsna is no longer
in a broken Deity. Obviously something went wrong, so all we can do is get a
new Deity, reestablish and try to see that there is no offenses on our part.
That's all we can do. The offense of course may be somebody came into the Deity
room, some demon, and cracked the Deity, there little we can do about this,
but... therefore we have to take safeguardians or something.
Question: Should we install a Deity that has some fine cracks, and also what to
do with a Deity... because I had an experience, the Deity was very badly
damaged ...(indist)... and some of them were keeping the Deity in the house and
they got a new Deity.
BHANU SWAMI: Well, technically all Deities should be... that's it, not take an
old Deity and start worshipping again Å as far as sastra is concerned. Once the
Deity leaves the temple then that's finished, He should not be worshipped
again.
Question: So, where to put?
BHANU SWAMI: Different things. Water is one, it's common. An ocean, river.
Question: What about cracked Deities?
BHANU SWAMI: Generally, when you install the Deity, you are supposed to find a
perfect Deity. Now there may be some problems in the western world because
while getting the Deity there so many things may happen, so in one sense you
will have to overlook small faults. Of course nothing is perfect in the
material world anyway. We'll have to see the extend of the flaws, that's all we
can do. If it's not serious then we can probably establish. That's my personal
opinion, there's no rule in this.
Question: ...(indist)...
BHANU SWAMI: Tulasi Maharani? Not really, I don't think. Because it's not an
arca-vigraha, so it doesn't come under the same rules. But what we are
following are the rules according to pancaratrika system. Of course there are
other systems also, they have their own standards, but generally we have taken
initiation and follow certain rules like that for each type of worship. But
like Tulasi Maharani is not installed or anything according to any system like
that, so the same rules would not apply. But the one rule is there, that one
should be clean. One should be physically clean and of course, if possible,
mentally clean also.
Question: (break) ...some particular Deities was more merciful than the other
one. ...(indist)...
BHANU SWAMI: Well, of course Krsna is Krsna. If Krsna is there, then He should
be for everybody, isn't it, anywhere. But I've seen, I was in Tirupati once
ago, and they have a museum there. There was quoting from some sastra, some
pancaratrika sastra, that the mercy of the self-revealed Deity is the most.
Like the one in Ahovalam...
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: Self-manifested.
BHANU SWAMI: ...yes, self-manifested Deity, They would have the greatest power.
But on the other hand, that's like... Krsna is Krsna, so wherever He is He'll
manifest His power to the observing person.
Question: What's the difference between worshipping Salagrama Sila and
Govardhana Sila and (?) Sila?
BHANU SWAMI: In one sense nothing.
Question: ...(indist)...
BHANU SWAMI: Should he worship the Deity if he's sick or wound?
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: He has a wound or if he's sick?
BHANU SWAMI: It would depend on the extend of the sickness or the extend of the
wound I suppose. For instance if you have a contagious disease or you are so
sick, you cannot concentrate on doing the Deity worship, is better not to do Å
if you can find someone else to do the Deity worship, who is qualified. Of
course if there is no one else there may be some exception to that. Maybe that
case where there's no one else around who can do the Deity worship, there's no
initiated person in the temple, then you may be forced to do it. But if
possible, if you have 102 fever and you are about to collapse, obviously you
cannot concentrate so much on your Deity worship. So better someone else does
it.
Question: ...(indist)...
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: You have to fast until eleven o'clock in the morning!
BHANU SWAMI: Sun rises at eleven o'clock? Sometimes it doesn't rise at all!
Whether the rsis took that into consideration, I don't know. They didn't
consider people after ..(?).. following Ekadasi maybe...
Question: ...(indist)...
BHANU SWAMI: The Deities? No.
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: This question comes up because of this point about
Gaura-Nitai not taking...
BHANU SWAMI: I see. If you have Gaura-Nitai Deity, then, if the parana was
after the breakfast offering, I suppose, strictly speaking you would. ...Is
that what they do? They fast until 10.30 in the morning?
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: Are they fasting until so late? ...Not in Sweden, they
don't do like that.
BHANU SWAMI: Is there some contradiction where the parana is before the
sunrise? No, that could not be. I don't think that could be.
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: In Sweden they don't fast at ...(indist)...
Question: If in the Polar circle the sun doesn't rise...
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: And in summer it doesn't set.
BHANU SWAMI: So, there would be no Ekadasis anyway. There wouldn't be any
Ekadasis. Because it depends on the sunrise how to calculate the Ekadasis.
Isn't it? Å My personal opinion is we would ignore those rules in that case
about sunrise and all that. Just set a time like eight o'clock or let's say
seven o'clock and do it. That would be my practical solution to the problem.
Question: Srila Prabhupada said that if mice or rats contaminate the altar one
can kill them. Is that true or not?
BHANU SWAMI: You have heard?
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: I've heard it. The best is to catch them and send them far
away. Somebody asked Prabhupada, can we kill the rats, and Prabhupada said: No,
you should be killed.
Question: In Madurai temple in northern Guruvayur we have thousands of
cockroaches all over the cracks, all over the eatings, ... especially
cockroaches, these big ones, but they don't do anything about them.
BHANU SWAMI: ...(indist)...
Question: There are many stories about Deities talking to pujaris, so what is
this process that one can hear; what is this kind of meditation that one can
receive it through meditation?
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: He is trying to understand from stories we hear that
devotees are speaking with the Deities and they are hearing responses, he is
trying to understand what is that, is the Deity actually speaking or is the
devotee meditating that or what's happening.
BHANU SWAMI: Oh, we can see it like in Saksi Gopal case, actually the Deity
...(indist)... so in some cases it would be like that, in other cases perhaps
it's more like meditation also. It could be either. But in either case, like
even in the so-called meditation of seeing the Deity, it's actually Krsna.
Because you are seeing with your spiritual eyes. So in either case, whether
it's somehow let's say in some trance state or something, transcendental state
of consciousness, you see the Deity... It doesn't make any difference at that
point. It is the actual Deity, because it's Krsna.
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: In that particular case of Saksi Gopal, Prabhupada says,
that Gopal was speaking to the young brahmana, the brahmana was trying to
convince him to come to that village and the Deity was saying, how can I go,
I'm a Deity! And Prabhupada explains it like this, that the young brahmana
said, well if You can speak, then You can also walk! and in this way Gopal
would be defeated, and therefore He agreed to go.
BHANU SWAMI: So actually we may think things little astounding, in relation to
Deities or stories of Deities. Just like Gopal Bhatta Goswami, he was
worshipping Salagrama and that changed into a murti. How can that happen
because we know that according to physical laws in the material energy, how can
it change by itself into something else, such a form? Seems impossible for us,
but there are other laws in this world also we don't know about. And Krsna is
the Master of all the laws, so He can do anything. So the Deity can be Krsna;
simultaneously can be a Deity and can also be Krsna Himself. It is actually,
but we need the eyes to see it.
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: I think we make this the last question now, but maybe we
can convince Maharaja to come again; we can discuss when and where.
Question: ...(indist)...
BHANU SWAMI: I would think that this case of interrupting the worship, for
instance you are worshipping a Deity, this would apply more in a house, of
course than in a temple, where a guest comes. A Vaisnava guest comes in the
house, then you would interrupt the worship, receive the guest, seat him
down, give him whatever he needs, and then you would continue with his
permission, to continue worship and to complete your worship. So those things
would be done by you, you would interrupt your worship sometime. In a temple
that usually would not apply in many temples because the reception would not be
the same. The reception would be maybe somebody else doing so many things about
this one person, so other people would take care of the reception of the guest
or whatever. But in the case of ISKCON temples maybe it will arise, that there
is no one else in the temple except the pujari, and someone walks in, so you
have to receive him. Of course the same principle would apply, we take care of
him, receive him, and then continue the worship.
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: Can we inspire you to come again, that we make another
meeting?
BHANU SWAMI: Yes, and when?
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: Is between twelve and two a good time for you?
BHANU SWAMI: Yes, why not? (Conversation, indist)
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: I also don't know... I doubt that we can be here again,
because maybe somebody else will be... My idea would be to have on the veranda
of the library, I know nobody is going to be there. Across the gurukula. How
many would be interested in continuing tomorrow?
Devotee: ...(indist)...
BHANU SWAMI: Having lunchtime or breakfast time...
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: Sure, if we serve breakfast or lunch we will get a big
crowd. I really don't know how else we can arrange this because there's always
going to be other things going on.
BHANU SWAMI: ...(indist)... I think Harikesa Swami is giving lecture in the
gurukula at that time.
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: So, how many would be interested to come?
Devotee: ...(indist)...
KRSNA-KSETRA PRABHU: Oh, ok. Why don't we say that attentively. We can have day
after tomorrow, twelve o'clock, and if that is to be changed I'll check it out,
then we'll make a morning announcement. Ok, I think we'll end, thank you all
very much. Srila Prabhupada ki jay! Sri Sri Radha Madhava ki Jay!
Jagannatha-Subhadra-Baladeva ki jay! Sri Sri Gaura-Nitai ki jay!
Gaura-premanandi Hari hari bol!
Second Day
KKP: We are hoping that Jananivasa Prabhu will show up and speak about
instructions he got from Srila Prabhupada about Deity worship. He said he would
come. Also Bhanu Swami may come. They are the ones who really know about Deity
worship. And who among you are full time pujaris at present or have been full
time pujaris? How about part time pujaris, and cooks we should say? One thing
occured to me this morning during the Deity reports, something that is done
here in Mayapur for I don't know how long, some years. Every month on Ekadasi
they have such reports before the Deities as we had this morning, where the
different department heads of the Mayapur project give their reports. So today
this was an international report. It occured to me that this would be a very
nice thing, and actually a traditional thing to be introduced in our society,
in our temples. Deity reports.
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